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Posted:  5/4/2007 10:42 PM #3127
Mad Max


Joined: 12/3/2006
Posts: 95
Last Post: 12/20/2006
Subject: military Flechette...Is it legal to load?
hey redneck, would it be illeagal for me to buy a couple of pounds of the military flechette darts, and then hand load them into shotgun shells, just curious, because I think it would make an excellent home defense load for my win 1300 defender if it is legal.

-Max
They'll have to pry my gun from my Cold, Dead hands;
Guns dont kill people, PEOPLE kill people

Posted:  5/5/2007 12:27 AM #3132
mtnboomer


Joined: 2/9/2006
Posts: 336
Last Post: 8/18/2014
I doubt it would be legal as they could possibly be considered armor-piercing ammo. And handloading them, if you ever used them in a defensive manner, might get you a manslaughter charge and/or a wrongful death suit.

Just my $.02!
"I'd love to spit some Beech-Nut in that dude's eyes and shoot 'em with my ol' .45, cuz a country boy can survive!" Hank Williams, Jr.

Support the Second Amendment - Join the NRA http://www.nra.org

Oklahoma State #1 - GO POKES!

Posted:  5/5/2007 12:50 PM #3134
wildmanofwichita


Joined: 12/12/2006
Posts: 796
Last Post: 5/13/2010
From what I have "gleaned" from the GCA of 1968 and, the NFA of 1971, I "think" they are illegal under ANY circumstance. You will have to read ALL of the Statutes of those two (2) Acts. 8)
"Dissent is the Highest Form of Patriotism." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Those That OWN the Country, Ought to Govern It" (John Jay, 1st U.S. Supreme Court Justice)

Posted:  5/5/2007 7:55 PM #3126
bapa


Joined: 11/6/2006
Posts: 657
Last Post: 4/29/2009
What is the advantage of military flechette darts over say #4 buckshot? I'm not familiar with it.

I know my Mossburg 835 Ulti-Mag with 3.5 inch shells will do quick work on any LEW trying to do me or mine harm. I'm just curious why someone would want to use something other than good ole buckshot???
NAHC Life Member
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.
64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday

Posted:  5/5/2007 10:07 PM #3133
Mad Max


Joined: 12/3/2006
Posts: 95
Last Post: 12/20/2006
from what i understand about flechette darts, they will "shred" and go through the armed LEW, while #4 buck will usually "chew" not "shred" the Armed LEW, just knock the LEW down and really mess him up as buckshot flattens on impact; whereas a flechette dart will keep going, keep in mind i live alone with the nearest neighbor about 1/8 of a mile away so the idea of the flechette darts disabling anything besides the LEW is not a problem. IF someone whos armed and wants to rob/kill me in my own home, i am gonna want to put that LEW down HARD,not just put him down. I recently heard a story from one of my clients ( i work as a welder) who was stationed in germany as a MP back in the 80's, he told me about how he caught this guy trying to rob a car, he went to confront the LEW and the prick pulled a gun on him, his partner ( the MP's) pulled out the shotgun and shot the LEW, unbelieveably when the MP went to see if the LEW was dead, he found that the dude had no wounds from being peppered with buckshot, it turned out that the nylon shirt and nylon jacket the man was wearing had kept the shot from penetrating him. since i heard that story, it got me wondering what might be a better alternative to buckshot. then i saw the Ad for the flechette darts in the CTD magazine, and you know the rest.

-Max
They'll have to pry my gun from my Cold, Dead hands;
Guns dont kill people, PEOPLE kill people

Posted:  5/6/2007 7:26 AM #3131
bapa


Joined: 11/6/2006
Posts: 657
Last Post: 4/29/2009
I would have never guessed regular street clothing could stop buckshot, but I guess it could. Prolly depend on the range and type of clothes as well as the size of shot. I've killed deer with 00 Buck past 50 yards before and the pellets went deep into the deer's body before stopping.

Hmmm, wonder if there is any future in hunting with the flechette darts?
NAHC Life Member
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.
64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday

Posted:  5/6/2007 10:30 AM #3128
Semper Paratus


Joined: 2/23/2007
Posts: 288
Last Post: 5/18/2008
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html they have some interesting stuff.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."

Posted:  5/7/2007 3:09 PM #3129
hail_of_bullets


Joined: 3/3/2006
Posts: 233
Last Post: 7/10/2007
Subject: my 2 cents
I too was very interested in flechette ammo, when i heard about it and knowing how easily it it to load shotgun ammo. But report after report seemed to give a underwhelming opinion of how flechette rounds actually performed. i.e. that they were much less effective that the tried and true round balls of lead that have been in use for hundreds of years.

Some claimed that the flechettes did not "fly" per say but just tumbled through the air like shrapnel and therefore would not stick into plywood, the ones that stuck did not penetrate the plywood, still others flew way out of bounds as they were knocked off trajectory as they cleared the choke tube and or were knocked around by other flechettes.

Some claimed that the only usefull flechette round is a 40mm or larger located on a helo, or artillery piece.

I think it would be great to see some pics of real flechette rounds patterning and the shooters first hand opinion.... but I am inclinded to think they are not as effective as the old standard shotgun round..... or we would all be using them
Ask every question, question every answer

Posted:  5/7/2007 3:34 PM #3130
bapa


Joined: 11/6/2006
Posts: 657
Last Post: 4/29/2009
Subject: Puttin it to the test
Ok Y'all, I've decided to conduct a test of these flechette rounds compared to buckshot. What I'd like is some ideas on how most would benefit from the test. My idea is to take several pieces of 4'X4' cardboard and shoot one round of the flechette at a range of 45 feet. This is the distance from my back door to the front door. I'll then replace the cardboard and shoot a round of 00 buck 2 3/4" and repeat again with #4 buck. I'll photo the results and post them here for your analysis.

Your thoughts or suggestions on the choke tube to use? I'll be shooting my Mossburg 835 ulti-mag and I have a full choke or a modified choke to choose from. Any other suggestions to make this test better?

Also, who has the best price to order the flechette rounds from?
NAHC Life Member
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.
64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday

Posted:  5/7/2007 3:52 PM #3135
hail_of_bullets


Joined: 3/3/2006
Posts: 233
Last Post: 7/10/2007
I would say modified choke, but there is no hard and fast rule, since there is so little data. ( No one makes a "flechette choke" )

currently we are out of stock ( could've sworn we had a ton of them )

I am eagerly waiting to get a look at those pictures !!!


Dave
Ask every question, question every answer

Posted:  3/26/2008 9:57 AM #3112
General Protection Fault


Joined: 5/21/2007
Posts: 74
Last Post: 4/10/2009
Subject: military Flechette...Is it legal to load?
I'd be interested in knowing more about the details of the GCA and NFA rules that might apply - I didn't think there would be anything in there about what could or could not be loaded into a shotgun shell, though I suppose it makes sense. (Seems like the folks who make their own exotic shotgun loads out of carpet tacks, scrap metal, chain, and that sort of thing aren't doing anything too different, however.)

I think there were some concerns that the flechettes could be a violation of the Geneva convention somehow, though I doubt that you and the goblins who break into your house have signed any such agreement with each other, and I think that the US Military's decision not to employ flechettes for normal use is probably more for practical reasons than anything else (as mentioned by someone else, based on the limited information I've seen flechettes don't seem to be especially reliable ammunition, as far as penetration and accuracy go.)

That said...

A pound of the things seems like it will go a long way in shotgun loads. I bought a pound of them and split them up with a friend of mine, and it seems like whatever I have left would still fill a lot of shells.

I wouldn't fire these from your best shotgun: it seems like the finned steel darts would be much rougher on the shotgun barrel than lead shot is, and it seems like a good way to beat up the barrel and choke.

I seem to recall reading that flechettes aren't loaded straight into the shell, but rather into a special sabot. That would seem to make sense to me: it might make the difference between blasting a collection of random shrapnel, and firing several stabilized projectiles. Not sure what you might use to make such a sabot with, though - Cork? Cardboard? Wax?

My friend tried loading some of the ones I gave him, and said the flechettes burrowed so deeply into a tree, they couldn't be dug back out, and described penetrating plywood, at least. I was not there, and can't confirm the findings, and I don't have the equipment to try loading these myself. He loaded them wrapped in paper, and I don't imagine this being the most effective way of loading them.

I'd love to see the test results of the flechette rounds vs. normal buckshot. And if there's anyone who can try it out agains ballistics gel or Kevlar, I'm sure the results of that would be enlightening and interesting! (Sounds like a job for the Mythbusters.)

Posted:  3/26/2008 2:19 PM #3113
wildmanofwichita


Joined: 12/12/2006
Posts: 796
Last Post: 5/13/2010
Hello Ya All,

Why not incorporate the K.I.S.S. "System" and use whatever caliber "SST" round for home/self defense? Even if the LEW has body armor, he will definitely "feel" the "sting" of any of Hornady's line/caliber of the SST ammo.

Just my opinion. 8) 8) 8)
"Dissent is the Highest Form of Patriotism." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Those That OWN the Country, Ought to Govern It" (John Jay, 1st U.S. Supreme Court Justice)

Posted:  6/24/2008 8:18 PM #3031
General Protection Fault


Joined: 5/21/2007
Posts: 74
Last Post: 4/10/2009
I'm going to re-load a handful of Wally-World cheapie-special shotgun shells with flechettes, and take them down to the range in a few days to see what happens.

I've loaded a prototype to see what happens. Here's the setup:


DESIGN:

1) I cut the forward end off the plastic shell (the crimped part) and emptied the lead shot. I figure that shot will blast the crimp open to allow the shot out of the shell, but it seems like the flechettes will puncture the crimp before blasting it open, so it seems best to leave the front open.

2) I pulled out the wad. The wad consists of three sections: a cupped part at the back that sits against a capsule of the powder, a somewhat collapsible middle section, and then a forward cup that opens up along slits in the sides upon exiting the barrel, to release the shot.

3) I cut the wad into pieces, separating the two cups from the collapsible middle bit. I discarded the middle bit.

4) I carefully inserted the rear cup back into the shell in its original location, pressing it snugly against the powder.

5) I then inserted the forward cup back into the shell facing in its original direction - it will now be sitting directly against the rear cup, making the wad much shorter than it was previously. This gives the flechettes more room inside the shell (without the modification to the wad, the flechettes would protrude out of the front of the shell.)

6) I cut a normal drinking straw (like the ones available by the handful at most fast food restaurants) into short pieces, just a bit shorter than a flechette. 7 pieces of straw will fit into a 12-gauge shell, inside the forward cup (one in the middle, surrounded by six others). This provides several "cells" that will contain flechettes; upon exiting the barrel, the cup will spread out as originally intended by its manufaturer, allowing the seven straw pieces to separate and fly toward the target (theoretically, until wind resistance separates the light plastic straws from the heavier steel darts inside.)

7) I then loaded two flechettes into each drinking-straw cell - they fit just snugly enough that they wouldn't fall out when the shell was inverted and shaken, but they seemed to be loose enough to be released from the drinking-straw cells when the wad is blasted free from the shotgun. I am hoping this should effectively allow a total of 14 steel flechettes to be blasted towards the target at full speed, while facing the right direction in at least a somewhat aerodynamically stable position, striking with enough force and momentum to penetrate deeply enough into the target to make an effective weapon.



CONCEPT: The idea is that these "cells" will keep the flechettes stable enough when fired from the gun to prevent the darts from tumbling through the air and then bouncing harmlessly off of a plywood target (or, at best, shallowly shredding a soft target like awkward random shrapnel). As a bonus, it looks like the design of the plastic wad and the drinking straw cells will help protect the inside of the shotgun barrel ( which was originally a concern of mine when I imagined loose steel flechettes scraping and pinging against the inside of the barrel at super-sonic speeds).

MANUFACTURING TIME: Manufacturing time was only a few minutes per shell for the first couple of shells; that time might improve with some experience.

POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS: In the future, I may cut part of the way through the drinking straws to allow them to split open when the wad clears the barrel of the shotgun and allow drag / air friction to separate them from the flechettes. I'll try the current setup first, however, to see if that is sufficient to keep the flechettes stable enough when blasted from the gun to allow proper penetration of a plywood target. As an alternative, I might try packing flechettes between the drinking straws, rather than inside them, so that the drinking straw packaging drops away from the payload of flechettes rather than being pulled away from the flechettes stuck inside. If I get time to before the test, I may try creating a prototype of each of these three configurations and see which, if any, work effectively during the first test.

NEXT STEPS: If the results of these tests are encouraging enough, I'll try comparing flechettes against regular shot against a variety of targets, to see if the darts really do perform favorably against regular shot. (I suspect that regular shot will be more effective, but maybe the flechettes will surprise me.)



Before I get too carried away, does anyone have any hard information about the legality of loading flechettes in shotgun shells?

Posted:  7/16/2008 10:31 AM #3035
CJ30-06


Joined: 11/13/2007
Posts: 45
Last Post: 12/16/2008
Hey, that's my idea! Oh well, I don't have any reloading gear yet anyway.
But as to your question of legality, I'd have to agree with mtnboomer, but then again, out where I live, who cares!!!
It would be great for squirrels, rabbits, and other small game. :twisted:

Posted:  9/15/2008 11:00 AM #3039
oldiron_79


Joined: 2/20/2006
Posts: 220
Last Post: 5/29/2013
I don't know of any federal regs about what can be loaded into shotty. As far as I know all the anti AP regs are for handgun ammo not long gun ammo.

But there are some warsaw pact states that have lots of silly state laws.
"A nation willing to sacrifice liberty for some temporary safety deserves neither safety nor liberty, and shall receive neither" Benjamin Franklin

Posted:  3/30/2010 5:24 PM #22070
EdX


Joined: 3/30/2010
Posts: 1
Last Post: 3/30/2010
Sorry to bust your bubble on your legal opinion my friend ... but not only is it legal to buy and load your own flechettes in the sports loads but you can legally buy 12 gauge ammo with flechettes already loaded if you want . Further any American citizen with a 308, 12 gauge, AR15, M16, .45, 9mm or 50 all can buy armor piercing ammo for each of these weapons and they can also buy armor piercing incendiary ammo for any of these weapons without any special permits or restrictions,, EXCEPT for those of you unlucky enough to live in California, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts and a couple of other leftest dominated areas. All ammo is US manufactured and ships just like it does from cheaperthandirt.com, .... via UPS directly to your door
 
Oh ... I should add if you're unlucky enough to live in one of the leftest dominated areas where you can't use your 2nd Amendment rights as our founding fathers intended then you might want to consider moving or taking up a life of crime as it seems that gun laws only apply to law abiding citizens and not to gangs and crooks.


Posted:  9/26/2011 5:01 PM #28270
skewed


Joined: 5/16/2011
Posts: 409
Last Post: 7/11/2012
no, you CANNOT possess actual AP handgun ammo legally, unless you are a cop. Federal law specifies what constitutes AP ammo. At one time, it said that if it pierces a threat level II vest, it's illegal, but that might have been part of the 1994 ban, and now it's dead. However, earlier law said that hg ammo using bullets made of steel, bronze, brass, or cast iron are illegal for civilians to possess. 
 
shotgun pellet patterns get larger because of differences in the pellets, as the air flows over their surfaces. the fletchettes supposedly spread to only 15" or so in width and hold that spread for up to 100m of reach. they don't tumble in flesh, however, just poke tiny holes in the target.


Posted:  3/31/2013 3:31 PM #37147
Klaus


Joined: 3/31/2013
Posts: 1
Last Post: 3/31/2013
Subject: Flechettes Best Results
The best results for Flechettes in a shotgun you need:
 
3" or 3.5" (76.2-88.9mm) 12 Ga. Shotshells
Your choice of powder, Wadding, and Primmers (magnum preferred)
flaxseeds
 
load your shell as normal (see your powder type load charts)
drop wadding cup into shell add enough flechettes to fill the cup
use the flaxseeds to compress the flechettes when you crimp the head of the shell
 
Warnings:
don't use chokes other than extension tubes or modified
don't use these rounds for hunting or home defense
(due to the fact that these are lethal up to around 50-60 feet and ricochet)


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